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Subject: Maple-Leafs Digest V1 #1170
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Maple-Leafs Digest Monday, January 31 2000 Volume 01 : Number 1170
In this issue:
Re: A Little Goodbye.
RE: A Little Goodbye.
RE: A Little Goodbye.
Re: A Little Goodbye.
Re: Diduck
Re: A Little Goodbye.
Re: A Little Goodbye.
Re: A Little Goodbye.
RE: A Little Goodbye.
Re: A Little Goodbye.
Re: Couch's Corner (No Leaf Content)
Re: A Little Goodbye.
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Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 22:29:47 -0500
From: "A.Graham Peace"
Subject: Re: A Little Goodbye.
Rick,
I am extremely disappointed in this move, but I do understand completely.
You just don't need the pathetic abuse that you have taken. Please rest
assured that there are many of us out here that have appreciated
tremendously the contributions that you have made. I truly hope that you
reconsider, but I would understand if you did not. You are a very good and
decent man.
I know that what I say next is against the list etiquette, but I don't
particularly care, at the present time. We have had too many absolute
idiots on this list. The bitter Jim Dodge is just the latest. I actually
find it hard to feel angry towards the man (if that's what he is), as he is
more pathetic than anything. I have no idea why he decided to bring his
childish drivel to this list, and I don't frankly care. He is a troll in
the worst sense of the word. I only hope that he is intentional in his
negativism and snideness, as it would be truly sad if he did not realize
the bitterness and tastlessness that his moronic posts exude. He has shown
himself to be an ignorant, pathetic fool, and that is sad for us all. I
can only imagine that he has a major inferiority complex, intensified by a
less than average intelligence and, most likely, too few good relationships
throughout his life. He finds power in creating reactions through the
relative safety of email messages. He most likely wouldn't have the
ability to make his statements in person. Your leaving, Rick, will
probably give him great pleasure, as he will view himself as a center of
attention, not realizing that the negative emotions displayed towards him
are no substitute for the positive emotions of friendship, trust and
caring. As I said, it is hard to feel angry for him when you realize how
sad and pathetic his life must be.
I cannot blame Chuq. He has run a superb list and done his best to find
the difficult balance between free speech and censorship. I do not know
what he could have done better, without being more dictatorial in nature,
and I certainly would not want to be in his shoes. I am considering the
creation of an exclusive list, open by invitation only, but I have always
worked against discrimination and exclusion. This will make me consider it
further.
Basically, this is the idiocy of the few ruining it for the decent
majority. Doesn't give you much faith in the human race, does it?
Good bye Rick, my friend. You will be sorely missed. :-(
Graham
Dr. A. Graham Peace
Assistant Professor of Business Administration
A.J. Palumbo School of Business and
J.F. Donahue Graduate School of Business
Duquesne University
Pittsburgh, PA 15282
email@hidden
(412)396-6251
http://www.drpeace.com
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 22:34:55 -0500
From: Patricia Cordiner
Subject: RE: A Little Goodbye.
Rick,
I am saddened by this move, but understand completely. You have as always
my respect and support.
I hope that after a while you will come back and visit. Jackasses come and
go, but good people are hard to find.
I would also like to thank you for every written word. A little bit of home
comes through with every report, and a little bit of family too.
Patricia
A transplanted Canadian in Maryland.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 23:01:33 -0500
From: "Kristi Kopp"
Subject: RE: A Little Goodbye.
I don't think I would be able to add to what Graham and Patricia have
already said, so instead I just want to post a huge thank you to the
contributions and hard work you've put in over the years. Like many others,
I look forward to your "couch's corner" each day. I now happily visit your
rival's site too. Having someone pay you and sponser the site in no way has
dimished the value of the information you share, but instead has given you
the ability and freedom to share more information and insight with the rest
of us. You're rivals site is in my bookmarks, and will be visited daily.
Rick, i'm sorry that you received so much negative feedback and crap that it
forced you off the list. I'm hoping that you'll still stay subscribed and
continue to post on occasion. It would be a shame for us to lose such a
valuable contributer and friend to the list.
Kristi
> -----Original Message-----
> From: email@hidden
> [mailto:email@hidden]On Behalf Of Patricia Cordiner
> Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2000 10:35 PM
> To: 'Rick Couchman'; Leafs List
> Subject: RE: A Little Goodbye.
>
>
> Rick,
>
> I am saddened by this move, but understand completely. You have as always
> my respect and support.
>
> I hope that after a while you will come back and visit.
> Jackasses come and
> go, but good people are hard to find.
>
> I would also like to thank you for every written word. A little
> bit of home
> comes through with every report, and a little bit of family too.
>
> Patricia
>
> A transplanted Canadian in Maryland.
>
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 00:33:30 -0400
From: "Jody and Lynn"
Subject: Re: A Little Goodbye.
Well Rick, this is very disheartening news indeed. The list would be quiet
for days but we could always look forward to your posts, they were always
focused in regards to Leaf content. They would stimulate discussion when
discussion was needed, it seemed for weeks on end you were abe to fuel this
list. Now you must say goodbye and this list will be weaker in your
absence.
I try to grasp at a semblance of what you must feel at times and often I
just can't. You put in time and energy for people you don't know, out of
genuine goodness. You have no debts with us but many take your service for
granted. Rick, you owe us nothing, we owe you much gratitude. I seldom
post, more of a lurker but I always read. Why I do not post more regularly
all boils down to time, I have very little it seems and I know that we all
have very little time, that is just the way life is, no time :), but you
have made time for us and I thank you deeply.
Now, I am not going to tarnish this gratitude by mentioning Jim Dodge in
here. I am not going to say that a real man would step forward and
apologize for being so inconsiderate to a fellow human being. I am not
going to call Jim a disgrace, because that is not like me. People like Jim
get what they deserve in due time, it all comes out in the wash, so there is
no need for me to humiliate this man, he does a fine job of that himself.
The leafs brought Wendal back twice, I think this list should be good for
bringing Mr. Couchman back just once.
Thank you for your valuable time, Rick.
Take Care Jody
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 00:51:06 -0400
From: "Jody and Lynn"
Subject: Re: Diduck
> But it hasn't just been trimming. Some decent adding has been going on,
as
> well. Sure, the Kings, Warriner, Modin, Cote and Sullivan are gone, but
> added from last season are Hoglund, Cross, Khristich, Clark, Diduck,
> Antropov and really Adams, as he was not with the team much, last season.
> IMHO, this is a reasonable upgrade in talent. The guys who are gone have
> been very well replaced, and the team is stronger for it. They are
> tougher, more defensively adept, yet still maintain an offensive ability.
Yes Graham, I totally agree, the leafs have added talent and are stronger
than what we were last year, however only Cross came as a result of a trade
for a current leaf player. I mention the Kings because nothing came back in
return. Cote(picks), Warriner(pick) and Sully(waived) likewise nothing in
return. I know the picks we received are necessary and I do like picks, it
just needs to stop now, what I am saying is no more exit lights, shut em
off. I dont want to see Valk sent packing or McCauley simply because they
cant be in the lineup every game due to numbers, we need the current depth
we have even it is just over the remainder of the season.
Take Care Jody
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 21:15:00 -0800
From: Chuq Von Rospach
Subject: Re: A Little Goodbye.
At 10:29 PM -0500 1/30/2000, A.Graham Peace wrote:
> I know that what I say next is against the list etiquette, but I don't
> particularly care, at the present time. We have had too many absolute
> idiots on this list. The bitter Jim Dodge is just the latest.
List Mom here. Please excuse the interruption, but it's time for a
few words from On High.
> He is a troll in
> the worst sense of the word. I only hope that he is intentional in his
> negativism and snideness, as it would be truly sad if he did not realize
> the bitterness and tastlessness that his moronic posts exude.
No, he's not. He's a person with strong opinions that just don't
happen to toe the company line of the list. That's not being a troll.
That's simply disagreeing. He has a strong attachment to his opinions
and he could be somewhat more tactful in how he reacts to people on
the list, but to put it bluntly, so could some other people in their
dealings with Dodge.
Dodge's biggest sin here is that he refuses to agree with the people
on the list. That's not trolling, unless everyone here has decided
that no disagreement is to be allowed on the list,and if you have, I
might as well shut the list down.
If Dodge is to be attacked as a troll, then IMHO three or four others
on this list are as guilty, only they represent the more mainstream
attitudes on the list, so I guess that's okay.
It goes both ways, folks. This isn't a case of a troll, as Maynard
was. Dodge is just showing that people on this list have gotten very
intolerant of people who disagree with them. Both sides are being
equally intransigent right now, and I find that very disappointing.
Has this list really narrowed itself so that someone who's not part
of the accepted group of issuers of common wisdom is by definition a
troll? If so, then I, as List Mom, has failed miserably.
I'd like to suggest that everyone sit down, take a break, and look
themselves in a mirror long and hard, and ask yourself just how
tolerant you've been of views other than yours, and whether Dodge is
the real problem, or simply being attacked for refusing to admit that
he's wrong and you're right. And if it's the latter, isn't that a
definition of a troll?
I'm very disappointed right now. I feel sorry that things got this
bad with Rick without me realizing it was coming, because what Rick's
going through, I've done myself, more than once. But that's for
myself and Rick to discuss in private, if he wants.
As to the rest of you, including Jim Dodge, I would like everyone to
please go spend some time looking in the mirror, and ask yourself
whether you've been accepting of other views and new members who
visit this place, or if this place has closed down into a club where
you can't join unless you know the secret passwords. Have you been as
accepting of others as you all demand others be accepting of you?
> I cannot blame Chuq. He has run a superb list and done his best to find
> the difficult balance between free speech and censorship. I do not know
> what he could have done better, without being more dictatorial in nature,
> and I certainly would not want to be in his shoes.
No, you wouldn't. Because sometimes you have to piss off your
friends, because you think they're wrong. It's easier to just do the
simple thing, especially when you aren't even sure what the right
thing is.
> Basically, this is the idiocy of the few ruining it for the decent
> majority. Doesn't give you much faith in the human race, does it?
I agree completely. But I don't think it's the few you think it is.
chuq
List Mom
- --
Chuq Von Rospach - Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:email@hidden)
Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:email@hidden)
Pokemon is a game where children go into the woods and capture furry
little creatures and then bring them home and teach them to pit fight.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 00:23:53 -0500 (EST)
From: Marc Hurst
Subject: Re: A Little Goodbye.
M:)
Thank you....
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 00:46:36 -0500
From: Jim Dodge
Subject: Re: A Little Goodbye.
Rick Couchman wrote:
> But there comes a time when a guy just wears out.
Let's see if you can go out with some grace...
> You know, when he knows
> he's had enough. I spend HOURS per day updating the site, then editing and
> posting at least part of the story here, if not all of it, at an extra time
> expense, but knowing that folks somehow appreciated it. Before the Rivals
> site it was the same. It took probably an hour a day to do a decent Couch's
> Corne to post here, just so fellow Leaf folks in Australia, and England, and
> South Africa, and many other places, could get what I thought to be decent
> Leaf coverage. I've given a preview of almost every game played by the
> Leafs in the past 2 or 3 years I think. I've broke countless stories to the
> list that were on radio or TV, or ones that I scooped myself in my press
> dealings. It's partly ego to know that I was doing a service to the list,
> but it's mostly a love for the Leafs and hockey in general. I just felt
> somehow, in a mushy sense, well - needed.
That's an awful lot of work. I certainly couldn't do it. Nor would I even
try. But if I ever did I certainly wouldn't pass myself off as a legend in my
own mind.
> Most of us have survived a few trolls that liked to create havoc. There's
> Lars and Maynard and now there's Mr Dodge (and countless others) - guys that
> just like to hear themselves type.
Well, which was it? What made you pack it in? All that work? Or the
"trolls"?
It's the work, isn't it? And aren't you just _using_ the so-called trolls as
an excuse to leave? And isn't that a completely gutless thing to do?
Well sir, I'll call your bluff. I'll unsubscribe. I won't be here to blame,
ok? And since I am the reason that you quit, the last straw as you put it, but
for the fact of my joke you would still be here, right? I will withdraw and
you can go on happily making your contributions.
What will your excuse be now? That a bit of ribbing from me damaged you beyond
the point of continuing?
> Very little actual useful info is given
> by them, and seldom if ever do you see them offer to start a topic, they
> just criticize everyone else, like they're just playing a game to cause as
> much of a disturbance as possible, or so it seems to me.
So you can't take a ribbing, eh? You really take yourself, this list, and the
Leafs all that seriously, huh? I guess it's just my twisted personality but I
saw your announcement to the world that you in a background shot of a hockey
game for about 20 seconds a natural setup line. What kind of response were you
expecting? "Well gee, Rick. That's really neat. That's something you'll
remember for the rest of your life. Wait 'til I tell the folks at the water
cooler!"
> The regular posting folks know what I mean by weathering the storm. You put
> up with it, and try to ignore it, but it gets you down after awhile. Each
> time you go through a wave of some juvenile with their childish little
> rebuttals, you think to yourself - this is the last time. Next time I'll
> just quit. I don't need this. And more than likely, you keep plugging away
> at posting. For me, this time is it.
Make up your mind! Was it my ribbing or was it the work you did without
getting paid? Was it my harmless little crack about nose-picking on TV or was
all the time you spent without getting paid? Or was it your thin skin? Or the
pressure of your self-imposed commitment to the list? The last time you
threatened to leave you claimed I was "attacking" you simply because you took
_personally_, for God only knows what reason, my belief that Berezin is a
puck-hog.
My name is Roger Maynard. I live at 164 Erie Ave., Brantford, Ontario. And my
picture can be found at www.rlmaynard.com
Anytime.
UNSUBSCRIBE
cordially, as always,
rm
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 09:00:53 -0400
From: "Michael S. Elliott"
Subject: RE: A Little Goodbye.
> but it's time I say goodbye to the list.
The starting lineup won't be the same without you, Rick. Keep your stick on
the Ice.
..
michael elliott
list founder
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 08:13:47 -0500
From: email@hidden
Subject: Re: A Little Goodbye.
Obviously, it's sad to see Rick go. It's interesting that Key's Quotes
started out as pointers to internet stories; then Rick turned the column
into a day-by-day, what's-happening item, and then ended it a a pointer to
internet stories. I know it was a lot of work, but - and Rick, I really
DID appreciate Couch's Corner - it ended up as a free ad for a commercial
web site. That, I thought, was an unfortunate use of the list. But if I
were lucky enough to be in Rick's shoes - if I had spent the effort he has
to develop the contacts, the resources and the skills - I'd love to have
done the same thing, turning a hobby into a career. I'm jealous. But in
a way, it's good to separate them. Rick, no reason you can't stay on the
list as just another lister, while developing the web site.
Meanwhile, Roger Maynard - geez, when I was guessing who it was, how could
I have forgotten dear Roger, especially with the "Dodge" handle? - has
succeeded in driving out someone else. But I'll side with Chuq here in
saying that I found most of his comments quite appropriate. Rude, snide,
and sneering, but generally to the point. As one who gets a box full of
flames for not toeing the party line in every post - to the point where I
almost fear putting up anything the least bit critical of the team because
it will always result in a half-dozen or so "get the F* off the list, you
retard" messages - I agree that as much as I enjoy the information from the
list, it is NOT a forum for discussing the leafs; it's a forum for
agreeing that everything about the leafs is wonderful.
I stay on the list for the information which, as we all know, is not
readily available in Ottawa because of the regional TV issue; but it sure
would be nice to be on a list where discussions can be had about negative
steps as well as positive, without immediately being roasted.
In short, I know exactly how Rick feels. I've unsubscribed several times
because I get sick and tired of being flamed merely for saying something
other than the Leafs are wondeful. (As an aside, I think it was Jody who
last year posted "enough is enough" and noted that I had more become
negative after the Sens were dumped from the playoffs last year. That I
didn't mind - maybe even appreciated - because it was an intelligent and
rational observation instead of the usual "get off the list because you're
a sens fan" comment. I don't know if Jody was right, but it was nice that
someone actually had a logical reason for complaining.) Anyway, I end up
re-subscribing because I like having access to what's going on with the
team. But I can't help noticing that the best posters - John Hunt, Rick,
Steve Key - have essentially been driven away. There's a saying in
economics that "bad money drives out good". It's true in other areas too.
- --------------
Tom Curran
gosensgo(tm)
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 08:36:10 -0500
From: "Mike Gladstone"
Subject: Re: Couch's Corner (No Leaf Content)
> apple and immediately collapsed in agony. His name was Tiger something
(I
> have "Tiger Shaw" in my mind, but that might not be correct).
...possibly Tiger Watson, Tiger Williams *OR*, Tiger Woods.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 09:36:39 -0500
From: "A.Graham Peace"
Subject: Re: A Little Goodbye.
At 09:15 PM 1/30/00 -0800, Chuq Von Rospach wrote:
>No, he's not. He's a person with strong opinions that just don't
>happen to toe the company line of the list. That's not being a troll.
>That's simply disagreeing.
I'm sorry but I must disagree. I have absolutely nothing against Mr.
Dodge's opinions. I disagree with them, but that's no problem at all. The
joy of this list is debating with others who have different opinions. I
do, however, have a strong problem with someone intentionally ruining a
nice moment by posting a tasteless lie about nose-picking. I have a strong
problem with someone who posts fictional stories as fact. I have a strong
problem with someone who attacks character and not opinions. I have a
strong problem with someone who purposely attacks the decent and worthwhile
work of others. I have a strong problem with someone who increases their
own self-worth by tearing down the work and achievements of others. I
think Rick's leaving is evidence enough that Mr.Dodge's (and others) posts
have been more harmful than useful. Rick isn't leaving because people
disagreed with his views! He's not leaving because Jim Dodge argued
against his opinions! He's leaving because of the completely unwarranted
public abuse that he has taken from far lesser human beings like Mr.Dodge.
I have no qualms in standing up and saying "this is wrong." Post anything
you want on the Leafs, but consistent, vicious personal attacks and lies
should not be tolerated.
I strongly support anyone's right to post coherent (or even incoherent)
arguments regarding anything Leaf-related. Dodge's (or should I say
Maynard's?) arguments on Berezin were, IMHO, incorrect, but not at all out
of place here. He has made many interesting posts. Unfortunately, he too
often made his attacks personal and completely unrelated. He has had an
agenda to attack Rick personnally. I classify that as trolling.
I'll shut up now. It saddens me greatly that the lack of decency and
character of a small minority of list members can force the likes of a Rick
Couchman and a John Hunt off of this list. No one benefits here. But
then, that's the point, isn't it Mr.Maynard?
Graham
Dr. A. Graham Peace
Assistant Professor of Business Administration
A.J. Palumbo School of Business and
J.F. Donahue Graduate School of Business
Duquesne University
Pittsburgh, PA 15282
email@hidden
(412)396-6251
http://www.drpeace.com
------------------------------
End of Maple-Leafs Digest V1 #1170
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